54: Getting EXTREMELY Practical about Intuitive Eating
Updated: Jan 9, 2020
I've worked for years to help people troubleshoot intuitive eating. I believe that intuitive eating can work for ANYONE: but, it's incredibly important to learn about how to make it your own, rather than just blindly following someone else's interpretation or black-and-white rules.
Join me as I talk with Jessi Haggerty from the BodyLove Podcast about the practical ways I approach intuitive eating for myself and my clients.
This interview was recorded originally for her podcast but she shared the audio file with me and I'm republishing on Nutrition Matters Podcast because I think you all will love our conversation! And, it's a little change-up because I play the role of interviewee here instead of interviewer.
Jessi Haggerty's website (blog, podcast, workout plans)
Jessi's podcast: BodyLove Project on iTunes
We mentioned my upcoming FREE webinar: The Six Most Common Intuitive Eating Pitfalls & How to Work Through Them during the episode
Positive Nutrition online course coming soon!
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Well hello. Welcome back to another episode of nutrition matters podcast. As you know, I’m Paige your host and today I’m bringing you something a little different than normal. So I ...a few months ago actually recorded an episode, a podcast episode with Jessi Haggerty who has started a new podcast called The Body Love Podcast--or The Body Love Project--excuse me, and she interviewed me. She’s doing a series about intuitive eating and she interviewed me alongside a few other fabulous dietitians who I admire and really think are wonderful about my perspective on intuitive eating and I told her that, you know when she gets that finished if she wants to send it my way, I’ll republish the audio on my podcast, that way my audience can listen and kind of get familiar with her podcast. As well, I think it might be kinda fun for you all to get to know me a little bit differently because you obviously talk a little differently when you are the interviewer versus the interviewee. So I think it's a really fun conversation. We get really practical about how I approach intuitive eating and how I help my clients. What exact tips do I use to help people continue to move forward in their journeys to healing their relationship with food. So I truly think you’ll enjoy this episode. I really enjoyed making it with Jessi and I think she’s really awesome. I’m excited to see where her podcast goes.
Jessi: Okay, Paige. Let’s start at the beginning and tell me a little bit about your journey to becoming a dietitian and how you got involved with intuitive eating as part of your practice.
Paige: Yeah, so at age 14 I knew that I wanted to be dietitian. My mom is a really, really good cook and I’ve always really loved helping her in the kitchen and then I really enjoyed playing sports, so I was really active in basketball and volleyball. In high school, I played club volleyball. I was really into it and I’d have different people tell me different things about what foods to eat and I just felt like I really would love to feel like I knew the truth about food because I feel like there’s so much conflicting…
Paige: ...stuff out there and so I went to a career day in high school and listened to a dietitian talk and I was like sold that day. The crazy thing was I was kind of like, ‘You know, I might change my mind and I’m okay if I want to change my mind, but I think this is what I want to do.’ So, yeah. Here I am. (laughing)
Paige: Still into it. Still loving it. And it’s evolved throughout the years. At first I thought, ‘I’m going to help everybody lose weight and have the healthiest lifestyle ever,’
Paige: ... and I went through school and just kind of realized how hard it is to help umm...just weight loss is just kind of you know, a tricky issue…
Paige: ...in terms of does it even work...
Paige: ...is it even you know, does it even really help people long term or does it harm people long term to go through that work of trying to lose weight? Do I feel good about being involved in that world? and so you know my journey was sort of like...I took a clinical job out of school, which was great. I really loved the exposure I had to all kinds of different things. I was trained as a diabetic educator in the hospital setting, which was fun. I got to teach new and old diabetics about, you know, medication management and food and eating and carbs and all of that, and that was a lot of fun, and then I did you know other regular educations and regular clinical work. I really enjoyed working with doctors. I really enjoyed like the team aspect of the clinical environment…
Paige: ...but what I really kind of felt was missing was umm just the continuity of seeing someone, working with them, following up with them, checking and seeing what’s working and what’s not.
Paige: So that whole behavior change process in the hospital is really not the best because….
Paige: ...because you’re talking to someone when they’re drugged up…
Paige: ...and after surgery and their family is there and they’re like super not in the mood to talk to you.
Paige: So I just felt like, I felt like, ‘Man I feel like I could do so much more than this. I feel like I could really help people.’ So I...an opportunity came up to be the outpatient dietitian at the hospital, so I took that job and that was amazing and I was exposed to eating disorders for the first time which I had told myself I would never do…
Paige: ...all kinds of stuff that I was like, ‘Aughh! This is way out of my comfort zone!’ But, umm, you know on the shelf...I hadn’t heard about Intuitive Eating until I became the outpatient dietitian.
Paige: So on the shelf of the office that I took over was that book and some...I know I had heard of it at some point. Someone had mentioned it. So I was like, ‘Oh, I’ll read that.’ So I read it the first few weeks on that job and I was like, “Oh, this is it!’ and it was actually..a lot of the concepts in there were things that I’d already come to intuitively, for a lack of a better word…
Paige: ...like on my own. So it was really great to sort of be validated by just this really you know great body of work.
Paige: So, that’s kind of it.
Jessi: I think that’s so interesting when you first saying you know I was really looking to find the truth about food because I have always felt like when I tell people why I got into nutrition, that’s like the reason. I wanted some answers because you hear so...and still so much conflicting advice.
Paige: Oh, if not way more now.
Jessi: Right! Oh yeah.
Paige: I mean this is a way different time. Yeah.
Jessi: Totally. Right, I’m like oh if I felt like that you know ten--over ten years ago--like imagine how people are feeling now.
Jessi: But it’s so interesting because I think when you start learning about intuitive eating and that whole practice you’re like, ‘Oh, this is like where the truth is.’ And then you find out it’s just different for everyone. Like there’s no facts that it’s like that’s going to fit you and me and one of our clients, and you know…(laughing)
Paige: So true.
Jessi: ...like someone living on the other side of the world. So I’m like, this is so interesting.
Paige: It’s just nuance. It’s all nuance.
Paige: There’s no black and white answers. Yeah. (laughing)
Jessi: I had a similar experience not from reading that book, but I read along time ago this book--which I don’t think got a lot of attention or at least maybe because I read it before there was like tons of umm people sharing stuff like on social media and everything. But it was called The Jungle Effect and it was a doctor who studied people who were living in America but from like different parts of the world or like that’s where their nationality was from and so, she really discovered like what were these areas in the world and like where was there incident...what was their like lowest incidents of disease and like how are these people eating in their current environment, but like not… but are trying to I guess avoid like how their body like best assimilates food. I thought that that was really interesting because it kind of touches on a similar concept of like we’re all different, like we’re all going to process food differently. Now there’s so much information out there that tries to put everyone in these like little boxes of like well you should follow a vegan diet and you should follow a paleo diet and you should follow a sugar free diet or gluten free diet and everyone’s like ‘What am I supposed to do?’ (laughing).
Paige: Yeah. It’s so confusing. Totally.
Jessi: But it takes a little bit of work to figure that out. So after you read that book and started working...implementing that into your sessions a little bit more with clients and patients?
Paige: Yeah, yeah! Totally. Umm and like I said, it was a lot of stuff I had sort of come to naturally in my own eating journey and in my own life and so, it just...it felt ethical to help people…
Paige: ...instead of helping people you know learn about carbs, fats and proteins, or something like that, you know yeah you might have those conversations but it just felt a lot more sort of true to who I am as a human being to help people really heal what’s wrong and work on the problem at hand rather than just sort of like trimming at the limbs of the tree so to speak, you know. Sort of getting to that root and so yeah, I think we’re always learning, we’re always growing, we’re always changing and you know even now with my podcast that I have like I’m exploring issues and learning and kind of grappling with, ‘Well what do I really think about that?’ and so I think it’s fair to say we’re always you know trying to figure out how to apply this better and I think the more you learn…
Paige: ...and the more experience you get, you realize just like what you were saying earlier, gosh nobody…(laughing)
Paige: ...no two people are the same...
Paige: ...and nobody needs the exact same advice…
Paige: ...so, it’s tricky. Some people with intuitive eating, it’s...they...there’s such--and we can get into this later if you want, but there’s such black and white thinkers that...
Paige: ...it actually totally messes them up! (laughing)
Paige: So, anyway yeah.
Jessi: No, it’s so true! And I found that that was like a really, really hard thing for me when I started coaching people, like just when I started out as a dietitian or like before I was a dietitian I was working just as a personal trainer, so I was always working one on one with people and I was always trying to like help people be more moderate in their choices and there are some people who like just can’t wrap their heads around that and it is like I need to know exactly how many calories, exactly what time of day I’m going to be eating, like when I...like what time I should stop eating, like they really want all of these…
Jessi: ...these rules. Yeah. And I actually was reading through your website a couple of days ago and I came across your blogpost that was like “6 Myths of Intuitive Eating” and one of them was that people always think there’s no structure, it’s like ‘Well I’m going to just eat whatever I want,’ and I know that umm this came up on another episode, but a lot of times people say, ‘Well I don’t trust myself...
Paige: That’s huge.
Jessi: I don’t trust myself to let myself “go.”’ So, can you talk a little more about that? About like if you're with someone who is like really black and white, how can you give them structure without feeling...well, also allowing them to tap into their intuition when it comes to eating.
Paige: Yeah, I think that’s like the name of the game when you’re trying to help people with intuitive eating, because that is...you have to sort of like meet them where they are and where a lot of people are is rigid, all or nothing, (laughing), used to dieting, used to rules, right. So, umm I really try to meet people where they are and even if it’s not perfect or ideal, I like to sort of start implementing and weaving in various aspects of intuitive eating. So, umm I’ll tell you kind of two things I do. So one thing is I kind of draw a little bit of a picture and I know this is kinda hard on a podcast, but on one end over here is food obsession…
Paige: ...and that’s where most people who find intuitive eating are coming from.
Paige: They’re obsessed. They’re crazy. They’re just overboard and extreme with their concern about nutrition. And then over on the other end of the spectrum is food apathy and to a black and white thinker, intuitive eating can feel like it’s saying, ‘You need to go from food obsession to food apathy. You just can’t care anymore.’
Paige: You just can’t, right. So one of the visuals I like to draw for people is hey, let’s not be extreme on either end of the spectrum. Let’s come here to the middle. So like imagine my hands like you know still in a range but just closer together and on the food apathy side is flexibility.
Paige: So it’s not apathy, but it’s flexible. And then on the other end of the normal...within the normal range of the spectrum is food concern or you know, you’re trying to really be aware and cognizant of getting you I know a balanced...well balanced meal and diet and all of that.
Paige: And so I like to kinda paint this picture where it’s like, I’m not trying to bring you to this other extreme. I’m trying to bring you somewhat to the middle.
Paige: And it’s still a range. This is normal. It’s still a range, but you get to decide like do you feel more comfortable smack dab in the middle? Do feel a little bit more comfortable on the flexible end of the normal spectrum?
Paige: Do I feel a little bit more comfortable on the more concerned end? And I think there’s space for that. Like I don’t think we all need to be you know eating donuts everyday for breakfast because that’s what sounds good and that’s what’s intuitive to us right?
Paige: I mean it just like...I feel like that’s what an all or nothing thinker tends to kind of do with intuitive eating, is it’s like, ‘Okay, there’s no rules and that means I have to just eat the thing that’s “not good for me” because if I eat the food that’s “good for me”....
Paige: ...that means I’m listening to the food police…
Jessi: Right (laughing).
Paige: ...which is one of the principles of intuitive eating not to do. So it can really mess with your head if you’re an all or nothing thinker.
Jessi: Uh, yeah. I can totally…
Paige: So that’s kind of one idea.
Jessi: Okay, what’s the second one? You said you had two.
Paige: The second one is umm, one of my favorite ways to help people apply some structure is umm to have structured times of day when you eat. And I know maybe not everyone would agree with me on this, but I like to use hunger and fullness as a way to decide how much to eat, not when to eat. So, for instance, you should have a normal sort of eating routine where like maybe you eat around 7-8:00 in the morning and then you eat again around 12-1:00 and then again around 5-6:00 and then maybe you eat another snack in the evening or something along those lines lets just say.
Paige: So, for me I eat a really big breakfast. I just do. I love like getting really satisfied first thing in the morning and then a lot of times I show up at lunch and I’m just kind of like a little blah…
Paige: Like not that hungry yet, but I’ve noticed when I skip lunch or I go too long without eating lunch, then I end up getting way too hungry....
Paige: ...I don’t make the best choices, then I’m not hungry for dinner, which I wanna be able to sit down with my family and eat.
Paige: And so I’ve noticed that like for a lot of people it’s helpful to say like here are your structured meal or snack times and some people need, you know snack time in the afternoon and some people don’t. Some people need a morning snack. Whatever. So, we figure that out together. Just a basic structure and then you make an assessment of how hungry you’re feeling when you show up to that mealtime and then that dictates how much you eat. So, for instance if I show up at lunch and I’m kinda blah, but I know it’s kinda time to eat, if I can identify, ‘Okay, I’m a little hungry but not as hungry as I would usually like to be for a meal, so instead of eating my sandwich and my yogurt and my apple and peanut butter and my carrots, lets just say…
Paige: ...I’m gonna eat half my sandwich and my yogurt and maybe a couple bites of the apple and see how I feel and try to get to that satisfied level…
Paige: ...even if I’m not you know super hungry.
Paige: That just sets you up for being able to then be hungry at the next time you’re supposed to eat instead of just like…
Paige: ...bouncing to extremes of starving and then overdoing it kind of thing.
Paige: That’s my favorite way to help people apply some structure.
Jessi: I think that’s a really great tip because I think that I see that a lot as like people either well, like one, is just like eating kind of constantly throughout the day like not really thinking about it. Or two, like what you were saying before is like having breakfast or maybe even like skipping breakfast and then having lunch and then going like eight hours until dinner. Or maybe like not...some people I know don’t even eat until dinner and so there’s like all these different things that kind of...yeah, like your body...you’re gonna tell your body when it gets hungry if you kind of make that structured meal time.
Paige: Yeah. Sometimes you have to get yourself on that structure in order to start tapping into your intuition.
Jessi: Yeah, cool. And I love what you were saying about that spectrum is there’s...food obsession and food apathy and I think that, you know umm...I actually have a friend that we kind of joke about because he really, like I think he’s on that food apathy spectrum. Like he could care less about food, like he’s like just get...he like eats...he’s like one of those people who like eats for function. I’m going to have my chicken now so I don’t pass out tonight. (laughing) Like that’s...and I was like, I’m someone who really enjoys food, umm and I think that a lot of times, right people feel like, ‘If I’m obsessed with it, I now just either have to not care about it.’ And I like what you were saying about how it’s still a spectrum. You can still pick one side if you want to but just make the spectrum a lot smaller.
Paige: And a lot less extreme. Yeah!
Paige: Exactly and I love that because for so many people who try intuitive eating who are black and white thinkers, they do end up in that apathy and it’s just not them, right, and it just doesn’t jive with their personality or with who they are, so they're really unhappy.
Paige: So sometimes--and I know this is like potentially controversial to say this for people who are really like rigid intuitive eater, you know what I mean?
Paige: Anyway, do you know what I mean?
Jessi: It’s just such an oxymoron it seems like, but go on.
Paige: It is, but there are like people out there who will totally judge you if you’re like trying to take a different approach.
Paige: So anyway, I’ve had it happen to me.
Jessi: No judgement here.
Paige: Okay, good.
Paige: You know I think sometimes people just do really well with a little bit of permission to care, you know…
Paige: and a little bit of permission to say, ‘Hey it’s okay to choose the “healthier” option. It doesn't mean I’m listening to the food police…
Paige: ...and all it means is that I’m just trying to kind of make a choice that’s going to lead to you know my body feeling great, my body functioning the way I want it to.’ I think sometimes people just need permission…
Paige: ...who are internalizing that intuitive eating message in a really kind of like intense way.
Jessi: Yeah, I agree and I think that sometimes it does take being on both ends of that wide spectrum to really figure out how to get…
Paige: That’s true!
Jessi: ...to the middle because…
Paige: So true! Yeah.
And that’s kind of I feel like how we all are with everything. It’s like, I mean on one of the other episodes we were kind of like relating this to like money. You talk about like, well you can have like follow a really strict budget or a lot of times people decide well, screw it. I’m not going to follow a budget, I’m just gonna like do what I want and like you know “be moderate.”
Jessi: But there’s I think that there’s like always...you have to kind of experience both sides, ummm...
Paige: That is actually really wise and that’s often what the first you know weeks or months of intuitive eating look like for people, is just like, ‘Okay I guess I’m apathetic now,’ you know.
Paige: And I think like you said it’s an important part of the discovery of like where you like to sit and where you like to kind of land on that spectrum. So yeah, totally true.
Jessi: Have you found that that is difficult when you have people who are coming from this place of restriction or food obsession and I mean in my experience I know a lot of times I get people who like they expect to like, ‘Well, how fast am I gonna lose weight? How fast am I gonna see results?’ And you know, how do you kind of structure umm...I guess your program for a person like that and say, ‘Okay well maybe you’re not going to like lose weight, but you will see results in a different way.’
Paige: So, it starts on my website because I hate when people get actually into my office where they’re gonna have to pay me and…
Jessi: Sure. (laughing)
Paige: ...you know and then I’m telling them something like, ‘Hey, let’s not focus on weight,’ and it’s like that’s not what jives with them.
Paige: Liek I get that my approach is maybe not what everybody’s ready for…
Paige: ...or willing to listen to, so I really try to make it super clear, like everywhere on my website, like everything I do is like you know really trying to be you know weight neutral. Yeah, I might talk about weight loss, but I’m always framing it in…’That is a wonderful consequence of positive behavior change for a lot of people, but not for everybody,’ right?
Paige: So, umm I do try to have sort of like a weight neutral conversation. We talk about food neutrality a lot of times in that first session together, but then also like weight neutrality as well and so sometimes you know I’ll say, ‘Hey is it okay if I weigh you with your back turned to the number just so I can know what that number is and we can process this at one point together? But let’s just not make this about the number…
Paige: ...let’s make this about how you’re able to make some strides with your mentality and your relationship with food.’ Most of the people who come to me are actually sort of like on their last rope.
Paige: You know, they’re kind of like, they’ve tried it all and they like, ‘Fine, I guess I’ll try this professional. Whatever.’
Paige: (laughing) And so, they you know…
Jessi: I guess I’ll consult a professional now.
Paige: Yeah, yeah. Exactly! I’ve talked to all these other people and now I’m gonna try a professional. Anyway, so a lot of times they’re sort of already on board with like, ‘Okay, yeah. Diets don’t work, you know I might lose weight with a diet, but I’ve always gained it back in the past. I don’t want to do that again.’
Paige: So most of the time, it doesn’t require a ton of convincing, but it is sort of like a mentality thing--a mentality shift where you’re like, ‘Okay, weight loss is not our goal. Our goal is you know to improve your relationship with food and improve how you interact with food and if weight loss happens as a result of that, wonderful! If weight gain happens as a result of that, it’s probably what your body needed to do.’ And there are people who do gain weight as a result of that.
Paige: Or if your weight stays the exact same, then that’s exactly what it needed to do. So we just try to develop some...a sense of trust with your body in this process. And I’ve seen that work really, really well for people is when they finally let go of all of that rigid control adn kind of umm, you know concern in that way. A lot of times that’s just, I feel like there’s an element that we just don’t understand…
Paige: ...about metabolism. Just so much of it…
Paige: ...has to do with our mindset and the way we think about things and the stress we put on ourselves and sometimes just letting go of that can free up a beautiful world, so.
Jessi: I totally agree with that and I almost like...it’s so interesting because I feel...this is gonna sound so woo-woo to some people...but I can almost see it like on people, like when I first meet someone--not anyone. Like if I’m actually coaching them and not like some person that I just met at a party. (laughing)
Paige: If you’re in this mode. Yeah. (laughing)
Jessi: Yeah. I’m in the mode and because you know I do meet a lot of women especially who like are so like what you were saying at their wits end. They’re like so frustrated and I feel like that frustration alone is like such a huge factor into like why they feel so stuck. But it’s such a hard thing to tackle, so like when you talk about weight neutrality, like what...how would you...like what would be the first step you take with someone to try and get there?
Paige: Umm, okay…
Jessi: One of the first steps.
Paige: ...uh that’s so individual right?
Paige: So, I think sometimes I try to sort of help...I think a big thing I use in my counseling style is trying to help people think things are their idea…
Paige: So, I hope none of my clients are listening right now. (laughing)
Jessi: (laughing) That also works with small children. (laughing)
Paige: Right. And husbands. (laughing)
Jessi: And husbands! Yeah! (laughing)
Paige: It’s a good life skill to acquire I think. So, I’ll say stuff like, ‘Okay so tell me about the last few diets you went on.’ And they’ll say, ‘Okay, well I did Atkins and it worked really well.’ I hear this all the time, ‘It worked really well.’
Jessi: Yeah. (laughing)
Paige: And I’m like, ‘Okay, well what worked about it?’ and then they’ll say, ‘Oh, well I lost twenty five pounds,’ and then the big, ‘Ugh, but it was way too hard to sustain, so I ended up gaining it back.’ Then my next question is, ‘Well, would you really define that as working for you? Do you really think that diet worked for you if it ended up in you gaining more weight than you had lost?’ right?
Paige: ‘Now you weight more than you did when you started that diet. And how’s your relationship with food as a result? What’s changed there?’ and a lot of times they’ll be like, ‘Oh my gosh. You’re right. That diet didn't’ work. Yeah it worked in that moment, but it didn’t really work long term and now I’m actually more obsessed and more rigid and more mental....
Paige: ...about my food choices.’ So a lot of times they’ll kind of come to it on their own if you just like discuss or kind of question some of their logic where you’re like, ‘Oh really, did that work?’ and they’re like, ‘Oh, yeah. Right.”
Paige: That’s one thing. I don’t know. It’s so hard because …
Paige: ..it depends on the situation. It’s hard to generalize, you know.
Jessi: Uh, yeah. Totally. And I think that in even what you were just saying with those instances where like someone who...where they become more rigid after they have an experience like that because a lot of those programs are giving you like one more thing to obsess over so liek if it’s not calories, now with Atkins it’s carbohydrates.
Jessi: And it’s one more thing to feel bad about if you can’t do it--which most people can’t. I’ve never met anyone who stays on Atkins their whole life.
Paige: Yeah. No.
Jessi: And if they can, I’m like, ‘That sounds horrible!’ (laughing)
Paige: Well, okay so let me give you an insight into that.
Paige: So, I have this really random thing that I treat in Utah because I’m the only adult dietitian that’s willing to take on...err a dietitian that works with adults is what I meant... (laughing)
Paige: ...who’s willing to take on adult patients with this condition because usually it’s diagnosed, you know in infancy, so it’s called congenital sucrase isomaltase deficiency. In other words, you don’t have the amount of enzymes that you need to digest umm sugar and starch appropriately…
Paige: and the treatment is a very, very low carbohydrate diet and as a result a very high protein, high fat diet.
Paige: And there’s also medication that they can take that basically helps to supply some of those enzymes, but umm you can’t get away with eating a piece of cheesecake. You can hardly even probably even eat one bite of cheesecake even if you’re on that medication so you’re still very restricted.
Jessi: Right, yeah.
Paige: And it is, it is a very, very challenging thing and you know, that’s a medical condition that…
Paige: ..they have real results and consequences if they…
Paige: …”fall off the wagon.”
Paige: Umm and even that, like the rest of us don’t right? We could eat a piece of cheesecake and be like, ‘Shoot, probably shouldn’t have done that. That wasn't on the atkins diet.’
Jessi: Right. (laughing)
Paige: But that’s it right. That’s the end of it.
Paige: But for these people it’s like total consequences and so even they can’t stick to it …
Paige: ...perfectly. It’s too restrictive and so many of them say, ‘I wish that I didn't have this. I wish I could just eat normally. I would appreciate it so much and I wish people who diet on purpose or of their own free will would recognize how lucky they are that they can eat whatever they want.’
Jessi: Right. Yeah. No it’s so true. That’s so interesting. I’ve never come across that before. That’s common you said?
Paige: No, it’s not common.
Jessi: Oh, it’s not common.
Paige: It’s diagnosed in infancy usually and so they just get on a special formula and the parents kind of help the kids grow up with the condition but for some reason there’s you know quite a few adults in the area that have been diagnosed with it.
Paige: The one gastroenterologist that has been diagnosing it has...their clients for some reason have continually found me and so we finally connected and I said okay, I’m willing to take this on…
Paige: ...and so I’ve gotten quite a few of those referrals just because I kind of am willing to take it on. Most of the pediatric dietitians are like, I don’t know how to help an adult with that, so…
Jessi: Yeah, that is interesting. Can you tell me a little bit about maybe a particular patient of clent that you’ve helped using intuitive eating? I mean obviously you don’t have to mention names, but just to like have some more like tangible examples of like how you would get started with someone--even if that’s obviously not what's going to happen every single session with every single person. Like we said, it’s so unique.
Paige: Okay, let me...I have to kinda think about that a little bit. Umm…
Jessi: Or just like you know an example of a time where...because I know that...I can just...I know that so many people I’ve talked to about this topic just in general, not necessarily clients, but they’re so interested in it but I think a lot of people are like I don’t know if that could work for me. I mean it’s going back to that spectrum you were talking about, but maybe like what is the first step that someone can take to start this practice, even if they’re not ready to like go all the way (laughing)...
Paige: Oh yeah. Okay. That’s something I feel like I definitely answer. I think one of the most user friendly principles of intuitive eating is hunger and fullness. I think no matter what you’re doing with your eating, I think it’s really useful to start paying attention to when you’re truly hungry, when you’re eating when you’re not hungry, why you’re eating just sort of start gathering data on, ‘Okay if I eat this whole entire burrito for lunch, when do I get hungry for dinner. Well not until eight hours later. Maybe that was a little bit too big of a portion size for me.’ So start recognizing hunger and fullness and those patterns and even notice like when you push the limits and you get way too hungry, what are your behaviors like? And just start noticing...you’ll probably notice you don’t make the best choices…
Paige: ...and you don’t make the best choices about what you’re eating probably, or definitely about how much. And so notice what happens when you’re planning on coming home from work late that night and you know you're gonna be in that ravenous, just primal hunger state, you know notice what happens when you plan a snack that afternoon…
Paige: ...and you’re still hungry for dinner but not too hungry. I think just starting to gather data, starting to think about when you’re hungry, when you’re a little bit hungry, when you’re starving. What do those different consequences look like. Also, I think for me personally, I’m pretty good at hunger. I've alway been in touch with that. But fullness, I struggled with. Like, I grew up in a house that like..and my mom might not have meant it to be this way…
Paige: ...but this is how I took it because I’m a people pleaser.
Paige: She kind of shows her love through food. She’s an amazing cook, like I mentioned earlier.
Paige: So every night at dinner I felt this pressure to eat a lot of food…
Paige: ...so I sort of got into this habit of like just not even knowing I was done eating until I was uncomfortable....
Paige: ...which when you’re in highschool and you’re playing sports for two or three hours everyday, you can do that and it’s fine and you probably need it anyway..
Paige: ...but you know, the rest of us not in that situation can’t keep doing that. So, I had to really learn to discover what the degrees of fullness are.. To me there's satisfaction which sort of means you know, I’m feeling good, but I’m also sort of a little bit uncomfortable because I wanna eat more.
Paige: And then there’s a level above that, which I think is full and then a level above that, which is uncomfortably full.
Paige: And I would always get to that uncomfortably full state adn then fifteen to twenty minutes later when my brain really recognized what the feeling was, I wanted to like roll over die like almost every day.
Jessi: Yeah. (laughing)
Paige: And so you know as I’ve started discovering--and this isn’t really me starting. It’s been years. IT’s been a long time now. As I started discovering like oh, there’s a degree of fullness called satisfied that yeah it’s a little unnatural for me because I like to eat more than this.
Paige: When I stop there, I am never...I never regret it ten or fifteen minutes later. My body’s like oh I’m so glad you didn’t eat more because now you feel exactly perfectly full and not too full. And so, hunger is definitely something to become aware of because it helps you...when you eat at that appropriate hunger, then it makes it easier to stop at that satisfaction level…
Paige: ...or vice versa. So it’s sort of like I used to live in the extremes of like super hungry and super full…
Paige: ...and now I live--and it’s not that I don’t ever get hungry and don’t get full…
Paige: ...like I’m not neutral all the time.
Paige: But, the hunger is reasonable and the fullness is reasonable…
Paige: ...and it’s so much better.
Paige: I think tapping into that can be a really helpful and user friendly first step.
Jessi: Definitely. And I also really think... going back to what you said about even just being people pleaser, you can kinda look back on that and recognize like maybe that’s why you were doing that. I think that knowing something like that about yourself--because I know so many people who like start talking about you know...I had a client a couple weeks ago who said something along the lines of like ‘I always eat a little bit of dinner before everyone else.’ She grew up having a ton of children...she had four kids. They’re all grown up now. But she always ate like a little bit before everyone else because she felt like everyone was eating all the food that she like worked so hard to prepare and she never got like enough…
Jessi:...and I’m like, that’s such an interesting feeling because that has nothing to do with the food on your plate. It doesn't’ matter if its salad or a hamburger or a slice of pizza. It’s just like that feeling she was able to tap and just be like, ‘Oh this is why I’m doing all of that.’ And just set yourself up in situations that like that’s not an issue anymore. So like to recognize, I’m a people pleaser and just say like can I please my mom in like a different way than like finishing this plate of food right now. (laughing)
Paige: Yeah. (laughing) Totally. And your adult brain can understand that, but it’s hard as a kid.
Jessi: Oh, for sure. For sure. But I’m sure there are plenty of adults who still feel that way.
Jessi: Or, I mean I know I still feel that way if I like go to someone’s house, I feel rude like not eating if they’re like someone who really values the food that they make. Even if I’m like full, I’m like okay, I’ll have some because I don’t wanna be rude, but umm, yeah so it’s interesting.
Paige: So that scenario you gave about the lady who would eat food before dinner was actually served, that's something that I think is really common…
Paige: ..and something that if you like...the question you just barely asked me about like what’s the first step like if you’re tuneing into like,’When am I eating when I’m not hungry’, you know you’ll probably notice that in that scenario that you’re either so hungry for dinner that you just can’t wait, so you’re nibbling as you’re eating. But you probably notice that once you show up to the dinner table you’re not all that hungry so you still eat anyway.
Paige: So it’s so easy to like, umm start recognizing, ‘Oh my gosh, I am going overboard with dinner because I’m eating so much as I’m cooking.’ It’s easier to notice that when you start really paying attention to like hunger and fullness…
Paige: And so, and I do think that that’s like a really common thing that people do.
Paige: Just making dinner and having little tastes of it. I used to do that a lot and I used to do that cleaning up dinner--I would always nibble on it. And for some reason...I don’t know where this happened--I stopped doing that…
Paige: And it wasn’t a conscious effort, but it’s just like not the same draw anymore for me and I really think it’s made a big difference in my ability to just keep track of how much I’m eating…
Paige: And know when I’m hungry and full. So, yeah, I think that’s a big one that people do.
Jessi: Definitely and I always think it’s helpful...I think one of the most helpful things is to just tap into your fullness and hunger keys is like setting up your food on a plate and like you…
Paige: For sure.
Jessi: ...you were talking about structure...like that’s a really great black and white rule for people who feel they need that structure is like, okay, well I’m only going to like eat this food right now if I’m like able to sit down and put it on a plate instead of like eating out of a bag while i’m like cleaning the kitchen counters or doing something...multitasking.
Paige: That’s a great rule or guideline you know.
Jessi: (laughing) Yeah!
Paige: Yeah. That's a great piece of structure that can really sort of get people in the right headspace.
Jessi: Right and I think that’s really what we’ve been talking about is just setting yourself up to be in situations where like you can tap into your intuition even if like the food you’re eating is not “healthy” you know.
Jessi: I think...I just always think that that stuff is so interesting and it’s exactly what you said. There’s not enough research about how...like how you’re feeling in general, but then also like when you’re eating, how that can affect your metabolism, how that can affect your body too.
Paige: Totally! I mean we know that...I have personal experience in my life with stress or just anxiety or whatever, causing literal physical stomach aches. As a kid I almost always had a stomach ache, I’m not really sure why. But I realized like that it had to do with stress at some level…
Paige: I was like a wound up, stressed out kid for some reason (laughing)...
Paige: ...and I don’t have that problem anymore and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I’m like not all wound up like I was.
Paige: So I mean there’s definitely like psychosomatic things that happen to us and if we think it it can happen to us physically…
Paige: ...which is a little crazy, but it’s real.
Jessi: So crazy. It is so crazy! And I love that there are other dietitians talking about that because I think that unfortunately the...you know like you said a lot of times people will come to you as like, ‘Ugh. Okay. I’ll go see a professional now,’ and they kind of expect..I think a lot of people expect dietitians to be like super rigid. I think that even the title dietitian sounds so clinical and it’s like, ‘Oh, they’re gonna put me on this super strict diet.’
Paige: Well and I think, I see some other dietitians who kind of act like they're so rigid--and maybe they are--but I’m grateful that I don’t preach that…
Paige: ...because I would feel like a fraud if I couldn't do the things that I ask people to do in my office…
Paige: ...and so I feel really great knowing that I’m never going to ask someone to do something that I’m not willing to do myself…
Paige: and you know I really do practice intuitive eating and I do it in a way that works for me and I have never been happier about my relationship with food.
Paige: And, umm so, yeah. I just see some of these people who post just really, really kind of like fad diety type foods on their social media and it’s like I just wonder in their quiet moments are they like..are they struggling, you know?
Paige: And that’s not me like trying to be judgey…
Paige: I’m just like, that’s so hard to keep that up you know. I don’t care who you are.
Paige: It doesn't matter if you’re a dietitian, its just.. as a human being. Anyway, that’s hopefully not coming off too judgey. I just get curious like, are there really people out there who just like really do that long term and it’s sustainable for them?
Paige: My guess is no.
Jessi: Yeah. I don’t know. (laughing) I really don’t. And I think that it’s hard..I think it kind of goes back into like what we were talking about with this black and white. I found like when I first...I started working as a personal trainer when I like graduated from high school, so I felt like the job I had was always like compared with like the industry...like the wellness, health, fitness industry. I always like..almost...I still to this day don’t enjoy telling people I am like just meeting what I do because I feel like if I’m eating dinner, they’re like…
Paige: Yeah! (laughing)
Jessi: ..’Don’t look at what I’m eating,’ and I’m like, ‘I actually don’t care what you’re eating at all.’ (laughing) I’m like I say this to my clients too...
Paige: Ugh, such a pet peeve.
Jessi: I’m like I care about and like I care about your health and I’m here to help you, but I like really don’t care in the sense of I’m not judging you.
Jessi: ..because it doesn't affect me, like it’s not...I don’t know. I just feel like people are constantly...they constantly feel judged for like the food that they’re eating whether or not you tell them you’re a dietitian. Umm
Paige: But they always judge you too…
Paige: ...like I feel like every time I tell someone I’m a dietitian, I’m like eating a cookie.
Jessi: Exactly. I always say that. I’m always eating something that's like not textbook healthy…
Jessi: ...and I just stop...I kind of stopped caring after a while because it’s just so silly because, yeah dietitians like eat stuff like that too. (laughing) And I think the dierrence or I hope the difference is that like we’re just not feeling guilty about it anymore because that’s not serving anyone. And I hope...that’s like my hope for like working with people and it sounds like you're kind of on the same page. It’s like, yeah, I want you to be able to eat the donut without feeling like you hate yourself afterwards.
Paige: But you should eat the donut if it’s what you really want…
Paige: ...and I’d argue like so much of the time, you don’t really want the donut. You’re just scared that you’re never going to eat a donut ever again…
Jessi: Yeah. (laughing)
Paige: ...because you’re gonna go on another diet and so you have to eat it now.
Jessi: That is so true.
Paige: And so if you start just like not living in that mental space of like, ‘Oh no, I’m gonna go on a diet again,’ because that’s like a legitimate threat to your…
Paige: ...physiology, like your brain perceives that as a threat…
Paige: ...you’re just...you’re never gonna be...feel like smooth and flexible and good about your eating. You’re just gonna always feel chaotic and so like the donut example is great because, sure I don’t really care if you eat a donut. I care if you eat five donuts.
Paige: And who eats five donuts? Typically someone who’s just doing all or nothing thinking, right...
Paige: ...or they’re like, ‘Forget it, I’ve already eaten one, I might as well eat five.’
Paige: And so, really the culprit is not the donut. It’s usually just the way we’re thinking about it.
Paige: So, yeah. But I’d argue, yes, sometimes we don’t really want it…
Paige: ...and if we’re listening to that we often end up actually eating a lot more nutritiously, which is interesting.
Jessi: It is interesting. And it’s funny because what you’re saying reminds me of...it actually has nothing to do with food and it’s a quote--and I have no idea who said it first--but it’s like, ‘Things that can happen anytime often happen never.’ It’s really like a..to help you be more productive right, like if you don’t put something on your schedule then like it can likely never happen….
Paige: I think that is so true.
Jessi: ...but I think that like in the same way when it’s like if you can eat a donut anytime, you might just never want one…
Jessi: ...because you can do it whenever you want.
Jessi: And you’re right …
Paige: It’s about scarcity more.
Jessi: Exactly and then people do have that short sided approach, like ‘No, no, no! Well, if I can have it anytime I would eat them everyday.’ And I’m like, would you really? (laughing) When we really do that…
Paige: Yeah, I would be suspicious...I would doubt that that’s really the story for most people.
Jessi: Yeah. That’s so interesting. So, umm you mentioned the word flexible and I’m going to ask you this one more question because I’m just always interested to hear what other dietitians think about this. Because I had talked to someone a while ago about...uh I heard the term flexible dieting and when I first heard that term, didn’t know anything about it and I thought that, oh that probably sounds similar to intuitive eating. Like it sounds more flexible, but you’re like still trying to have food concern but not be so rigid with it. But then when I dug a little deeper, I found out it was more about like counting all of your macronutrients, which are like proteins, carbs, and fats and then…
Paige: So is that another word for if it fits your macros?
Jessi: Yeah, (laughing) and I remember I had someone who was like not a dietitian/nutrition/coach, whatever, just someone who randomly brought this up to me and I was like I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve never heard of this before and he was like, ‘Well, macros are macronutrients and there’s this app called My Fitness Pal…’ and I’m like, ‘Dude, I know all of this, but I don’t really know what the point is.’ (laughing)
Jessi: So, yeah it’s basically “if it fits your macros” and it gives you like same thing...calorie restriction, macronutrient restriction, umm but basically says you can eat whatever you want as long as it fits into that framework. How would you approach someone who was kind of like coming from that perspective which is still kind of flexible but still kind of putting that restriction on it?
Paige: I would push back and say it’s not flexible at all.
Jessi: Right. Okay. (laughing)
Paige: (laughing) Like part of the rules of if it fits your macros is like carrying around a food scale with you everywhere you go.
Jessi: That’s true.
Paige: So, like I actually know of someone who went to Thanksgiving Dinner with a food scale. Like literally had that on the table.
Paige: So I would push back and say like that is false advertising, like yeah it’s maybe more flexible than some other fad diet, but what does flexible mean as we’re comparing it to another thing?
Jessi: Right. (laughing)
Paige: Like I’d argue it’s just not flexible. My definition of flexible is what we’ve been talking about…
Paige: ...this whole time, right? The donut example’s a great one. And so, is it flexible and is it practical and sustainable if you have to you know bring measuring cups and food scales and teaspoons with you everywhere you go? You have anxiety about which restaurant that your work is going to choose or what catering they’re gonna bring in. You know, you can’t...you isolate yourself from your friends because you don’t wanna have to deal with making a choice about what…
Paige: ...to eat around them and you know, gosh that is so not the way I wanna live my life…
Paige: ...and I would guess most people don’t wanna live their life like that.
Paige: So, I am not a huge fan. Sorry, did I answer your question?
Jessi: No, yeah. I just wanted to hear your opinion on it because I was almost kind of similar to you. Like when I heard that term, I was actually like super excited to learn more about it and then I was kind of deflated when I was like, that’s not really flexible. (laughing)
Paige: Yeah. (laughing)
Jessi: You know when I learned like what it was and it kind of...I was just curious because you said the word flexible and I was like, ‘Hmmm.’
Paige: I think flexible... like flexible structure is a term that Emily Fonnesbeck uses and I really love that term because it’s...they’re sort of like misnomers right? Structure is not usually flexible and flexible things are not usually structured, but it makes sense in terms of food because there is that gray area, right? So her idea is applying flexible structure to your life where, yes you might say I eat at this, this, and this time per day, but you know if that goes out of whack one day, I’m not gonna freak out, right.
Paige: I’m gonna be able to be flexible about it.
Paige: Like, that’s kinda what I think is a helpful way to think about the word flexible when it comes to food.
Jessi: Right. And I think that you know what you’re saying...as I talk to more and more people about this topic my goal is like I’m gonna make this gray area, this moderation, like as sexy as like all the restrictive stuff (laughing) that’s out there.
Paige: (laughing) I know, right. Well, it’s human nature. I mean it makes...it’s kinda the way we’re supposed to do things right. It makes things easier to know is this good or is this bad?
Paige: And being a mom of little girls, like this is kinda how I conceptualize this issue and I know this might sound a little condescending, so forgive me, but here’s how I see it. When you’re teaching a two year old about hitting, you have to say. ‘Hitting is bad.’
Paige: ‘Do not hit.’
Paige: ‘You may not yell’, you know you say like very black and white things to a two year old to teach them how to behave.
Paige: Now, the older your kid gets, the more you have to teach them, ‘Hey if someone is going to attack you or try to take you away, you can bite them. You can kick and scream and yell and do anything you need to do.’ That’s very hard to tach that nuance to a two year old…
Paige: ...but you can start teaching that to a four year old. And so I think with food, we’re all so immature…
Paige: in our journey with it. We’re still in that like good/bad, right/wrong space…
Paige: And I think part of like growing up is recognizing how umm broad and open the world really is and how there really are no answers and it’s all relative and it’s all situational…
Paige: ...and I think we can see that in our normal life and we can see like lying isn’t good, but sometimes you have to, to be safe.
Jessi: Sure. Right.
Paige: We can see that as adults in our behavior and in our life, but I think it’s so hard for people to make that leap into food.
Paige: because so much of food is tied into identity and you know attention and whatever else and approval and worthiness and all of that, so we just wanna stick to what’s right and wrong because it’s what’s comfortable and what feels good to us like on a basic human level.
Paige: So, anyway.
Jessi: That’s such a great analogy. (laughing) It really is. Can you tell some people where they can find you if they’re looking for your website or your podcast?
Paige: Yeah, so umm my website is paigesmathersrd.com and that’s where you’ll find kinda everything. If you want to connect with me on social media or take a look at the podcast. The podcast is a seperate website, but you can get to it through that website too.
Jessi: We’ll post links to both in the show notes.
Paige: Okay, yeah great! And I’m pretty active on instagram and facebook, not so much anywhere else. I kind of you know spend most of my time in those two places so that I can do a good job there instead of not a great job in a lot of places, so...
Paige: ...yeah! So that’s that pretty much.
Jessi: Awesome. We’ll post links to all that stuff in the show notes. Thank you so much! This has been so interesting and so inspiring and I hope everyone feels the same way.
Paige: Well, I sincerely hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation. If you haven't already, please go ahead and leave a review on itunes. Thanks again so much for listening and we’ll see you soon for another episode.